In this episode of The Developmental, I’m in conversation with fellow Substacker, Dr. Nathalie Martinek, an independent researcher, writer and facilitator whose story and work bring new clarity to the messy business of human growth. We explore how narcissism, and the shadow of shame that often goes with it, can be reframed not as a clinical label, but as a relational pattern that we each play a part in.
Nathalie takes us from her time as a researcher in cancer biology labs to her own mirror moment: discovering how people (including herself) can behave like cancerous cells within toxic organisational cultures.
In this episode, she shares:
A vivid reframing of narcissism as something we all carry in relationship dynamics
A powerful three‑fold shame framework for navigating inner resistance when we set boundaries
Practical tools—from narrative reframing to the Drama Triangle—to support courageous and relationally healthy leadership
I hope this conversation encourages you to lean into your own developmental edge, helps you discover new pathways to model what you teach and walk the talk as leaders, becoming, as Nathalie beautifully says, an antidote to relational toxicity.
Episode Highlights:
00:00 – Welcome & Intro
Alis introduces Nathalie and sets the scene for a deep dive into shame, narcissism, and walking the talk in leadership and facilitation.
04:20 – From Cancer Biology to Human Systems
Nathalie shares how her early science career in cancer research led her to study dysfunctional human systems and relational toxicity.
12:05 – Becoming the Cancer Cell
A raw reflection on recognising her own toxic behaviours within toxic systems—and the wake-up call that led to change.
19:15 – Spiritual Awakening & Finding a New Path
The messy, long road from burnout to learning reflective practice, spiritual healing, and group facilitation.
26:40 – Walking the Talk
Nathalie explains how the Family Partnership Model demands facilitators model what they teach—and how she learned to embody it.
34:15 – What Not Walking the Talk Looks Like
Real examples from facilitation settings—when leaders perform care but undermine psychological safety.
42:50 – Moral Courage in Facilitation
What to do when the person with the most power in the room (the leader) is also part of the problem.
49:10 – Hacking Your Own Narcissism
Nathalie redefines narcissism as a relational pattern, not a pathology, and invites facilitators (and leaders) to examine their power and need for control.
55:50 – Three Types of Shame
Nathalie introduces her brilliant framework:
Shame 1: Breaking rules you didn’t know existed.
Shame 2: Violating your own values to conform.
Shame 3: Feeling guilt after setting healthy boundaries.
1:09:10 – Good Person Syndrome & Boundary Guilt
Exploring the tension between being a “good person” and choosing self-alignment over others’ comfort.
1:16:35 – Practical Tools for Working with Shame
From reframing narratives to breathing exercises and working with Karpman’s Drama Triangle as a reflection tool.
1:23:00 – Final Reflections
Why increasing our tolerance to shame might be one of the most powerful levers for individual and collective transformation.
Guest Bio: Dr. Nathalie Martinek
Nathalie Martinek, PhD, helps people build relational leadership capacity and cultivate effective relationships in professional life, while also supporting those who’ve been scapegoated, sidelined, or harmed in environments that protect image over people. As a coach, she works with professionals to shift unhelpful relational patterns and navigate subtle power dynamics. As a group facilitator, she creates spaces for learning, applied reflection, and restoration. As a consultant, she helps individuals make sense of workplace dysfunction and emerge intact, with insight into the system and how to move forward. Her approach draws on years of practice inside and alongside institutions, informed by an early career in developmental biology and cancer research, where she studied how environments shape behaviour and how systems enable dysfunction. Nathalie writes and teaches on scapegoating, narcissistic systems, relational leadership, and the emotional forces that shape them. She is the author of The Little Book of Assertiveness, The Scapegoating Playbook at Work, and creator of Hacking Narcissism on Substack.
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