Interesting paradox that shame is an emotion I would never want to precipitate, but you're right, the world as it is somehow bereft with it. And perhaps it's an inherent introjection most likely at certain stages that's just part of growing pains. "I erroneously believe that I am merely my identity with the group, and if I somehow seem to do something that does not align with the group, I feel the shame of my essential identity....until I discover that I'm more than my group identity!"
You're raising an interesting question, David - if I get this right - whether shame is as present at the later stages as it is at the earlier and if it is more likely to arise from a worldview that hold on to a fixed identity. So the hypothesis here would be that people with a more fluid sense of identity and who have made their belonging to a group object - are less likely to experience it in as debilitating ways as those with more fixed views of their own identity and who are object to their need to belong?
Yes that's what I'm proposing... Perhaps the shame gets deeper and deeper though, the later we develop. Maybe in later stages we experience shame not from a particular group but the shame of basic human needs, and the vulnerability of being a human being. Or perhaps shame of our basic animality and rawness... Until we can transmute that shame into ecstatic joy and freedom of our limitations and ultimate helplessness.... How does this resonate?
Hi Karl, I'm not familiar with the term System 1.... Can you elaborate? And it sounds like these terms like satisfaction and security have particular meanings in a context I'm not familiar with? I'm finding it hard to fully grasp what you're referring to...
My own experience working with Contrasting Emotions Process was incredibly insightful and profound. Revealed things I never expected to lie below the surface. The result is that now I all but seek uncomfortable emotions in order to learn about myself and world around me. :-)
Do you find that your tolerance to emotional discomfort has grown, Dina? I’m really curious what this practice of reframing negative emotions can yield over time...
Tolerance for me implies dislike of something (an emotion), yet willingness to accept. I no longer dislike and accept uncomfortable emotions. I look at emotions as being neutral, and simply allow myself to experience an emotion, whether it makes me comfortable or not, and examine whatever triggered it from different angles. The Contrasting Emotions Process added another dimension to it, the somatic process. Staying with an emotion opened up the whole new world of emotions that were underlying it, as if I was transitioning from one emotional space, to another, and another. The result is that my curiosity to emotional discomfort has grown.
Agreed, Karl! The only thing missing from Kegan's ITC (which I use a lot in my own work) is, in my view, a process to specifically address the emotions that arise - both in the 'worries box' in column 3, but also more broadly, in the process of doing ITC itself. I've had clients feel shame even looking at their four columns - so I believe adding a purely-emotion-oriented process to ITC actually rounds it up nicely and helps the client process their discoveries and more courageously engage in experiments around their Column 4 Big Assumptions.
Yes, Alis! I use Goldratt’s Evaporating Cloud instead. It enables access to the hidden commitments and a safe way of exploring the security need without triggering shame. It's kind of like using Kahneman’s System 2 to explore System 1.
That way my clients can almost transcend shame. I said almost because it still takes awareness and work when shame is triggered.
I think it’s difficult to separate our shame from our narcissism. For me both flow from the same source - the acceptance of, and attempt at adherence to, an image of ‘what good looks like’. When we feel that we conform to that image our narcissistic process is fed, when we feel that we fail to do so we (or have been forced to fail by the action of another) we experience shame. It’s one reason why I find all ‘what good looks like’ thinking - be it in parenting, coaching, management, wherever- to be highly problematic.
I love your underlying point that making object of our shame (and, I’d add, our narcissism) is an incredibly developmental step.
That is such an intriguing point, Ian! I hadn't considered the link between shame and narcissism - I'd love to reflect more on that. So can I ask- how do you see 'healthy' (not good) in this context? I mean, do you believe one can have healthy self-acceptance, healthy capacity to work with shame when it arises so it doesn't become debilitating and generally can one feel good about who they are and at the same time be very low on narcissism?
Yes, I think one can, but it depends on what I understand by ‘feeling good about who I am’. If I mean that I’m at peace with myself, accepting of the holes and limitations in me, loving others & myself in the same way and not chasing after any external validation or significance… that feels like a ‘feeling good’ understanding that perhaps sits outside the narcissism/shame dyad.
If I mean that I feel good about myself because I feel I’m confirming to my image if the ‘good man’, ‘good father’, ‘good coach’ etc it seems to me that I may be drawing my feelings of worth from my ability to confirm to the image I saw when I, Narcissus like, looked into the pool of ‘what good looks like’, saw someone I needed to be, fell in love with it, and began to draw my feelings of worth from that image
I definitely had the first scenario in mind- the mature “feeling good” version. And I like the idea of inquiring into how we might work our way out of the shame-narcissism dyad.
Interesting paradox that shame is an emotion I would never want to precipitate, but you're right, the world as it is somehow bereft with it. And perhaps it's an inherent introjection most likely at certain stages that's just part of growing pains. "I erroneously believe that I am merely my identity with the group, and if I somehow seem to do something that does not align with the group, I feel the shame of my essential identity....until I discover that I'm more than my group identity!"
You're raising an interesting question, David - if I get this right - whether shame is as present at the later stages as it is at the earlier and if it is more likely to arise from a worldview that hold on to a fixed identity. So the hypothesis here would be that people with a more fluid sense of identity and who have made their belonging to a group object - are less likely to experience it in as debilitating ways as those with more fixed views of their own identity and who are object to their need to belong?
Yes that's what I'm proposing... Perhaps the shame gets deeper and deeper though, the later we develop. Maybe in later stages we experience shame not from a particular group but the shame of basic human needs, and the vulnerability of being a human being. Or perhaps shame of our basic animality and rawness... Until we can transmute that shame into ecstatic joy and freedom of our limitations and ultimate helplessness.... How does this resonate?
This is on point David. Identity is a System 1 construct that maintains our security. Shame is it's protection mechanism.
Vulnerability is one aspect of finding a way out of the paradox through transcedence of the belief.
That is of course until what was once satisfaction becomes your security. Ah, the paradox of growth!
Hi Karl, I'm not familiar with the term System 1.... Can you elaborate? And it sounds like these terms like satisfaction and security have particular meanings in a context I'm not familiar with? I'm finding it hard to fully grasp what you're referring to...
Hi David,
Start here with security and satisfaction: https://yourthinkingcoach.com/2022/10/27/why-we-resist-change-2/.
Then go to here for system 1 and 2: https://yourthinkingcoach.com/2022/09/21/how-to-grow-with-inherent-dignity/
Best.
My own experience working with Contrasting Emotions Process was incredibly insightful and profound. Revealed things I never expected to lie below the surface. The result is that now I all but seek uncomfortable emotions in order to learn about myself and world around me. :-)
Do you find that your tolerance to emotional discomfort has grown, Dina? I’m really curious what this practice of reframing negative emotions can yield over time...
Tolerance for me implies dislike of something (an emotion), yet willingness to accept. I no longer dislike and accept uncomfortable emotions. I look at emotions as being neutral, and simply allow myself to experience an emotion, whether it makes me comfortable or not, and examine whatever triggered it from different angles. The Contrasting Emotions Process added another dimension to it, the somatic process. Staying with an emotion opened up the whole new world of emotions that were underlying it, as if I was transitioning from one emotional space, to another, and another. The result is that my curiosity to emotional discomfort has grown.
Love that, Dina!
Yes!
Level 1 - Discover the hidden commitment (Kegan). It’s a security based belief.
Level 2 - Shame is an expression of a threat to a security based belief. It’s a signal for change.
Another key insight from Brené Browne. Security does not equal growth - hence vulnerability is a key to growth.
Vulnerability and shame are connected.
Ergo shame is related to growth.
https://yourthinkingcoach.com/2022/11/30/how-to-become-a-daring-leader/
Agreed, Karl! The only thing missing from Kegan's ITC (which I use a lot in my own work) is, in my view, a process to specifically address the emotions that arise - both in the 'worries box' in column 3, but also more broadly, in the process of doing ITC itself. I've had clients feel shame even looking at their four columns - so I believe adding a purely-emotion-oriented process to ITC actually rounds it up nicely and helps the client process their discoveries and more courageously engage in experiments around their Column 4 Big Assumptions.
Yes, Alis! I use Goldratt’s Evaporating Cloud instead. It enables access to the hidden commitments and a safe way of exploring the security need without triggering shame. It's kind of like using Kahneman’s System 2 to explore System 1.
That way my clients can almost transcend shame. I said almost because it still takes awareness and work when shame is triggered.
I think it’s difficult to separate our shame from our narcissism. For me both flow from the same source - the acceptance of, and attempt at adherence to, an image of ‘what good looks like’. When we feel that we conform to that image our narcissistic process is fed, when we feel that we fail to do so we (or have been forced to fail by the action of another) we experience shame. It’s one reason why I find all ‘what good looks like’ thinking - be it in parenting, coaching, management, wherever- to be highly problematic.
I love your underlying point that making object of our shame (and, I’d add, our narcissism) is an incredibly developmental step.
Great post Thank you
That is such an intriguing point, Ian! I hadn't considered the link between shame and narcissism - I'd love to reflect more on that. So can I ask- how do you see 'healthy' (not good) in this context? I mean, do you believe one can have healthy self-acceptance, healthy capacity to work with shame when it arises so it doesn't become debilitating and generally can one feel good about who they are and at the same time be very low on narcissism?
Yes, I think one can, but it depends on what I understand by ‘feeling good about who I am’. If I mean that I’m at peace with myself, accepting of the holes and limitations in me, loving others & myself in the same way and not chasing after any external validation or significance… that feels like a ‘feeling good’ understanding that perhaps sits outside the narcissism/shame dyad.
If I mean that I feel good about myself because I feel I’m confirming to my image if the ‘good man’, ‘good father’, ‘good coach’ etc it seems to me that I may be drawing my feelings of worth from my ability to confirm to the image I saw when I, Narcissus like, looked into the pool of ‘what good looks like’, saw someone I needed to be, fell in love with it, and began to draw my feelings of worth from that image
I definitely had the first scenario in mind- the mature “feeling good” version. And I like the idea of inquiring into how we might work our way out of the shame-narcissism dyad.
This aligns with our discussion and my use of the Evaporating Cloud, Alis.
Oops … didn’t finish
If it’s the latter then I think I’m feeling good from a place that feeds my narcissistic process