In this episode of The Developmental, I’m in conversation with one of the wisest, most conscious HR leaders I know: Fleur Carter.
Fleur has spent over twenty years inside one of the world’s largest and most innovative retail organisations, experimenting with what leadership development could become when the old playbooks stop working. Fleur and I have been in each other’s orbit for several years now, connected by a shared passion for vertical development and a growing inquiry about what the people function needs to become in this era of relentless disruption. This conversation grew out of several unrecorded ones - and true to form, we didn’t script it. We followed the thread and got to places we both found insightful, and I hope you do too.
What emerged is an honest exploration of what it takes to do developmental work at enterprise scale from the inside - from the story of a CEO who volunteered his own vulnerability as the starting point for collective change, to the structural redesigns needed when governance and reward systems actively work against the mindset shifts the business says it wants.
I came away holding a question that I think will stay with me for a while: what does it take to learn to breathe in free fall, when there are no more footholds between one disruption and the next?
Episode Highlights
00:00 - Welcome & Intro
Alis introduces Fleur and frames the conversation around reinventing HR in an age where disruption has become the norm rather than the exception.
03:00 - We Are All “In Over Our Heads”
Fleur reflects on Robert Kegan’s metaphor of ‘being in over our heads’ and how the assumption that disruption is temporary seems to have collapsed. A Buddhist teacher’s provocation: what if we stopped looking for footholds and accepted we are in free fall?
10:00 - From Buddhism to Bob Kegan
How Fleur’s personal journey through yoga, Buddhism, and living in India converged with her discovery of adult development theory and the links of modern psychology with ancient wisdom.
14:00 - A CEO Goes First
A new CEO with an intuition that what got them here wouldn’t get them there, and how volunteering his own Immunity to Change Map as the example for leaning into developmental discomfort became a catalyst for change.
17:30 - What Immunity to Change Actually Does
Alis and Fleur unpack the ITC process, including its power as both an individual mirror and a collective diagnostic tool for surfacing the hidden assumptions holding a business back.
22:30 - Why Trying Harder Doesn’t Work
The belief that failure to change means laziness or lack of discipline - and how organisations get trapped in cycles of pushing harder through more programs, more comms, more performance management.
31:00 - Capability vs. Capacity
The distinction that changes everything for HR: self-awareness as a capability you can train versus a capacity you need to develop. How IKEA built a leadership framework that holds both.
38:00 - Practising What You Preach
Why Fleur believes HR teams need to subject themselves to the same developmental work they facilitate for others, and how she and her team walked that talk.
42:00 - When the System Works Against the Change
The tension between a culture that rewards togetherness and consensus, and the need for more self-authored leadership. How governance structures, decision-making processes, and even board meeting formats had to be redesigned.
48:00 - What Is HR’s Role Now?
HR as a strategic driver rather than a fixer of ‘fluffy’ people problems, and how to embed developmental work in leadership programs beyond theory, moving the learning outside of the classroom.
55:00 - Finding Your Tribe
Why the work is lonely if you try to do it alone, and Fleur’s practical model of bringing in support - from developmental coaching, a tribe of like-minded thinkers, and a business mentor from the senior leadership team.
59:00 - Reinventing the Consultant-Client Partnership
What does it look like when consultants, multiple vendors, and internal teams truly collaborate and co-create - letting go of ego and individual goals in service of something bigger?
1:08:00 - Highest Intentions
Fleur’s driving belief that businesses can create positive change in the world, and the role of conscious leadership. And Alis’s biggest polarity - sitting with both despair and radical hope.
Resources mentioned in this episode
The Testament of a Furniture Dealer by Ingvar Kamprad, IKEA founder
Brené Brown with Lisa Lahey on Immunity to Change (Part 1 of 2) - Dare to Lead podcast
Connect with Fleur on LinkedIn
Guest Bio: Fleur Carter
Fleur Carter is a senior People and Culture leader and organisational learning strategist with extensive experience leading enterprise transformation in one of the world’s largest global retail organisations. She specialises in designing integrated organisational interventions that not only develop leaders’ capacity for complexity but drive real business impact.
Known for her systems thinking, strategic clarity and developmental insight, Fleur has been experimenting with reimagining what leadership development could become in the age of disruption. Fleur has designed and facilitated cutting-edge leadership experiences for senior leaders, developed and implemented a distributed leadership model at enterprise level and acts as a senior team development facilitator, coach and advisor. Working at the forefront of development, Fleur brings her curiosity for people, diversity and culture and how this converges with business realities.
Dive deeper
I hope you’ve enjoyed this article. If you are curious to dive more deeply into learning about Vertical Development and how it might impact your work and life, check out our online library of webinars and certification programs accredited by the International Coaching Federation. If you choose to become a paid subscriber to this Substack, you will receive complimentary access to all our webinars and a 50% discount on our long-form online programs, including our “Vertical Development Practices for Coaches”. You can also check out our new Developmental AI Lab (still in beta) - a laboratory for experimentation with ways AI can foster developmental growth.
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